October 7th is the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary. Today would be a good day to start a rosary novena.
I am not going to post one daily, as I am “all novena’d out” what with the Little Flower Novena and the Three Archangels Novena currently on.
I trust you to grab your rosaries, think of a specific special intention, perhaps peruse the rosary links in the left sidebar, and pray your own novena.
Today is the first day, the ninth day would be October 7th.
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Excuse me, but what is the origin of the rosary? How is the rosary compatible with Christ’s teaching that we are not to pray repetitiously, or with “much speaking”? (Matthew 6:7)
Also, where in scripture are we told to pray to someone other than God Himself? Where are we commanded or recommended to pray to Mary, even as a mediator?
1st Timothy 2:5 says there is only one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ. How can Mary be a Mediatrix?
The origin of the Rosary is ancient, approximately 800 years ago it was started as a means for illiterate Catholics to learn the Gospel. The Rosary is Gospel-based.
We are not praying “repetitiously”, we are using the prayers as a means of mentally focusing on the Gospel passages associated with the particular mysteries of the Rosary.
And the question regarding Jesus is the sole mediator is true, He is. But Mary is referred to as the “Co-Mediator”, as in subordinate to the prime mediator. This is rather complicated and you can find more thorough answers by either visiting some of the Rosary links or seeing catholic.com. The idea is based on the fact that we received Jesus from God through Mary. Jesus, as the Son of God and as God could have “just appeared”, but for some reason determined by God He chose to be born of a woman. And thus we received Jesus through Mary. And this is the basis for all Catholic Marian devotions, Mary points the way to Jesus.
There is nothing wrong with asking Mary or the Saints to intercede for us with God. The saints are the great “cloud of witnesses” that Paul spoke of. They are present before God, and thus can intercede for us with Him. This is similar to you asking some friend of yours to pray for you if you are going through a bad time or whatever.
In the English language, the prefix “co” denotes equal or similar duties, plurality.
Where in the Bible do we find any reference to Mary being titled?
What is the biblical definition of a saint? Is it not every Christian, living and dead?
Where does the Bible discuss dead saints interceding on our behalf? Where are we told or recommended to pray for help or intercession from a dead Christian? What stands between a living Christian and God? The only thing we are told that stands between us is Christ.
Why did Jesus correct someone calling Mary and his siblings His mother and brother, saying, instead, all who did His will were his mother and sister and brother?
You are wrong re: “co” denoting “equal or similar”, see “co-pilot” vis-a-vis “pilot.” Co-pilot is subordinate to the pilot.
Regarding all your previous, current and probable future questions, since it is apparent that these are all typical and common “Bible-only” Evangelical objections/questions of Catholicism, please see:
http://www.askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/holyquotes/_ALL_CATHOLIC_VERSES.HTM
It contains answers to virtually all of these common objections, from Mary’s “titles” to intercessory prayers of the saints, and so on.
Also: http://socrates58.blogspot.com , “Biblical Evidence for Catholicism” is an excellent resource, as well as: http://www.scripturecatholic.com , “Providing Scriptural Evidence for the Teachings of the Catholic Faith”
This site: http://www.catholic.com is among the best at providing information you seek.
I am directing you to these sites as they can provide far more thorough, in-depth and complete answers to your queries than I am capable. Although I am fairly knowledgeable about Catholicism and the Bible, I cannot provide timely catechesis due to my home, work and writing/blogging obligations and this is basically why I list links to such resources, so that anyone who is sincere, honest, open-minded and willing can find accurate answers.
Thank you!
I understand and thank you for taking the time to find those links.
With one exception, this is the exact response I have received from every single Catholic, including a priest, whose religion I questioned… “I’m too [busy/too tired/too angry], so go to this Catholic website”. Just so long as they don’t have to defend their religion in a debate.
And, believe me, I fully understand this. If I was a dyed-in-the-wool member of an indefensible religion, which has neither scriptural basis nor authority, I would respond the same way.
Just keeping sincere, honest and all that.
With your snarky reply, I can see that you’re not really interested in debate, just argument. I will not resort to that. This is just a blog on alcoholism and recovery.
My religion is not indefensible, as you would have realized had you truly been honest, etc., in examining the defenses those sites provide. I recommended them as they would do a better job than I, period.
Nevertheless, if your reply was less uncharitable, I might have been open to a debate. My patience is thin for trolls, however.
Dylan, I was interested in your comments as I was saying those very same things up until five years ago when I finally took the time to research what Catholics really believe, not what I thought they believe. Also, I had to admit that it was the Catholic church which decided the Canon of Scripture, in other words what books would be in the Bible and which would not, and this didn’t happen until the third and fourth centuries. So the Bible is Catholic.
At that point I realized I needed to go back and read the early church fathers, those who were there right from the beginning and that was a real eye-opener. I also discovered that the rosary prayer, “Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee” is right out of the Bible.
Another big issue was transubstantiation – the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I don’t know how I could have read John 6 all those years without “getting it”! Jesus didn’t say to eat “symbols” of His body and drink “symbols” of His blood.
And I could go on and on but needless to say I am now a convinced Catholic because I discovered the truth, not just what I thought was true. If you are honestly seeking truth I would suggest you read Scott Hahn’s book, “Rome, Sweet Home”. He also used to believe all the things you did, in fact he was a minister in a Protestant church. He is now a highly respected theologian and university professor in the Catholic church.
Also, the links that Paul put up are very helpful.
If you are just looking for an argument and not really seeking the truth, it doesn’t matter what anyone says.
Paul, I thought you just commented that you didn’t have time for debate. (“… I cannot provide timely catechesis due to my home, work and writing/blogging obligations and this is basically why I list links to such resources…”) So, how can you say you were considering debate before my unwanted reply?
Anyway, I thought this was just a blog by a former alcoholic, I didn’t know it was solely an AA blog. Looking at the categories wouldn’t lead me to believe it is anything other than a blog on Catholic doctrine and lifestyle. I know a debate without parameters is pointless, as you will not accept the Bible as the sole source/test of doctrine. (2nd Timothy 3:16-17, Matthew 15:9, Acts 17:11.) If it is one’s contention that one may add traditions or doctrine not contained in scripture, I would direct you to the passages which speak of Nadab and Abihu bursting into flame for offering “strange fire” to the Lord (Leviticus 10:1).
I think you will find the definition of “troll” is something other than someone who disagrees and tries to debate you, and then is abruptly told to go to another website when they try to continue the conversation. You know, I would have thought you would be delighted to explain your faith personally to someone who didn’t believe like you… is that Catholic doctrine? My Bible says to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you. I am ready, are you, or will you give me a link and a thinly veiled, “I’m up to your tricks?”
I can’t debate with a link, a book or a website, only with people.
Judy Ferguson, my family has been Catholic for the past seven generations, so I personally know and understand the traditions, teachings, and environment of the Catholic church. I will admit beyond ambiguity, I am looking for an argument, YOUR argument; debate, don’t link away.
I have no intention of continuing to comment unless either of you or anyone else cares to defend Catholicism, because I know how annoying it is to have an unwanted commenter, so let me know.
Dylan, I’m sorry I didn’t explain how I came into this discussion – the purpose of this blog as explained by Paul:
“one reason why I started the blog was to perhaps educate Catholics weakened in their faith due to their past alcoholism/addiction. So far it’s been mostly “How” to use the Faith or how the Faith can aid in recovery. Only rarely have I gotten into the “Why” of the Faith, and that’s usually been to explain the “How.”
You will see at the top of the blog under the title the explanation:
How one alcoholic maintains his sobriety by the Catholic Faith
So you can see that this blog is not in defence of the Catholic faith but for Catholics in recovery from addiction.
I met Paul and Rose in Facebook through a mutual friend and when I was on my way to the Summer Conference at Franciscan University met them in person. They are wonderful committed Christians who live out their faith every day.
I was interested in your comments because i am a convert who was a strong anti-Catholic for many, many years and in fact held ministerial credentials in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada and have been to Bible College. It was a quantum leap for me to come into the Catholic church and one of the shocking things I learned was that many “cradle” Catholics have little knowledge or understanding of their faith! It may be that your family falls into that category.
From what I have read and having talked to people it seems a general misunderstanding of both the intent and the content of Vatican II that appears to have contributed to that. I don’t think Canada was affected as seriously as the United States although I do think many Canadians have been poorly catechized.
Before I can have a valid discussion with you I would have to request that you read the Cathechism, including all the Scripture references, at least the sections you have questions about. If you are looking for MY “argument” as you call it, you will find it all there.
It is also important to know the history of the church that Jesus founded and what He meant when He said that Peter was the rock upon which He would build His church. Much as I tried as a Protestant to twist that to mean anything but the Catholic church and the Bishop of Rome I finally had to admit I was wrong – history proves it.
I would still recommend reading Scott Hahn’s book “Rome, Sweet Home” and some of his other books on theology.
Dylan:
Judy explained pretty well what I was going to respond to you with, but I will weigh in anyway.
Firstly: My comment that I don’t have time for debate was based on my initial assessment of your agenda here as based upon the tone and nature of your first comment. I sensed that you were not interested in genuine dialogue/debate but were just trolling for an argument. My reasons? Multiple questions all at once is a bit overwhelming and just raised a red flag, as well as I recognized in them typical non-Catholic ignorance. Perhaps I overreacted, but it turns out I didn’t. Also, usually people do not write comments to posts more than a few weeks old. Blogs are pretty much about fresh “content” and it is assumed that comments on old posts are ignored by the blogger. I do not hold to that as I regard Sober Catholic to be a resource. Regardless of how old a post is I will welcome comments to it, as long as they are relevant to the post and have a sincere, honest spirit.
Secondly: as Judy pointed out in her copy-and-paste of something I wrote elsewhere, this is not an AA blog, but just a blog by a Catholic ex-drunk who uses the Faith to stay sober. When I sobered up in 2001/02 I searched online for interactive Catholic resources as I knew that AA spirituality was not going to keep me sober. I found no blogs or online communities. So I started SC a few years later when I was able to. It is my intention that Catholics weak in their Faith either by alcoholism/addiction or poor upbringing in the Church, but who have a sincere spark within them that seeks Truth, will find this place and discover what the Faith has to offer. Which is why I have all of the links in the sidebar about Catholicism. It is beyond the scope of this blog to write about Doctrine except in a tangential way to illustrate how the Faith works. I pretty much always write in such post a suggestion to refer to the links, as they are far more thorough and comprehensive.
Thirdly: I do not believe that you are truly seeking the Truth, but an argument. Anyone who is humbly, sincerely seeking Truth would salivate at the idea of vast, comprehensive resources which can satisfy their quest. But you basically admitted that you weren’t into that, and were just seeking personal arguments. Judy and I believe in the Truth, and the Truth speaks for us, and our argument is there. We have no “personal spin” on it. An anti-Catholic would resist exposing himself or herself to the Truth as said Truth would be difficult to handle. Lies have a hard time with such things. It is easier to attack on a one-on-one basis. Humble seekers of Truth wouldn’t care, they are just about “Show me the stuff.”
Fourthly: the fact that you descend from a long line of Catholics and now espouse hostility and anti-Catholic beliefs is truly sad. Someone messed up the patrimony somewhere. Either the Faith wasn’t passed on correctly or some Catholic in your family really ticked you off long ago. I could go on a nice long Caribbean vacation if I got a dollar for all the times I heard an ex- or anti-Catholic say “I was raised Catholic” and use that as a basis to spout anti-Catholic nonsense. If they were raise properly, they wouldn’t have left the Church, or at least not be so opposed to it. And I know of a lot of ex-Catholics in AA meetings who had been hurt by someone in the Faith. They would rather let the resentment fester into a bad attitude towards the Church than to truly, honestly seek healing and understanding. A well-nurtured resentment can be a ego boost, in a twisted way.
Take care. Seek answers. Put aside the ego.
Paul